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Tutankhamun's Family Genetics - Thoughts on Recent Theories
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SaintGermain
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:

[\quote]Is not Herihor, along with Ramesses XI, thought to be potentially lying in tombs potentially as good, or better, than KV62. Both knew exactly what had happened in the VoK and surely must have thought, "Right you theiving gits, you aint gonna get me".[/quote]

Our messages arrived at the same time, so I couldn't address this. Herihor could have been placed in another cache with the "non-royal" pharaohs. It's a weird kind of snobbery but no other explanation for their absence comes to mind. I say this about Herihor because I really do believe that Nodjmet from the the DB cache is his wife. She looks exactly like one of her images. Unless she had a tomb of her own, she and Herihor would have both been moved.

Ramesses XI gave up on his Theban tomb as he realized he had no more influence in the south. It would be wonderful if he had a northern tomb--undiscovered.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:
Ikon wrote:
The way the forum is headed I don't think an offtop here and there is much of a problem.


How do you think it's going now, offtops and all? The forum seems to be on the uptick as none of the former nasties with their snide, rude, and just plain jealous negativity are participating. The very ones who brought Egyptian Dreams to the brink of extinction are not here. Rats always desert the ship once they successfully spread their plague. But, if they find out there' something going on here again, they're bound to return. Then the whole thing will begin anew. I have heard people get booted off this board for merely telling the truth. Tant pis, mes amis.

Well I turned up in mid 2012, and it was quiet then, not as quiet as it is now, but hardly in good health. It did seem to me when I joined, and noticing that some prolific posters had been banned, and others no longer posting, that maybe some sort of unpleasantness had been occuring, with perhaps swathes of posts removed, as is happening on the UM forum due to, mostly, one arrogant sad git. There's perhaps a fear of making a post and then being jumped on for not being at least 99.9% accurate, or seeming a bit fringy over matters that are very murky anyway. I tried to out forward some ideas on the "alternate lunar throne name" for Tutankhamun, and on Maat, but no takers as pyramids rule them all.

I remember on another forum Marianne Luban saying that she had had an unpleasant time here. Maybe many others have just gotten bored, but how does anybody get bored with Ancient Egypt. There's a few here that keep it ticking over so that it is not totaly taken over by a loony and a troll. It's participation that will keep it going, but it needs to be participation without snippyness, an issue at times, and that damned loony fantazising about KV62.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:

On what page does he write all the Thutmosids were tested? I missed this.

Page 61, top of the right hand column.

"Samples were taken from the mummy of Hatshepsut, Sitre-In (the wet nurse), 'Thutmose I,' Thutmose II, Thutmose III, and Ahmose-Nefertari"

See, I was too quick again, and along with Thutmose IV he also did not mention Amunhotep II.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:
Herihor could have been placed in another cache with the "non-royal" pharaohs. It's a weird kind of snobbery but no other explanation for their absence comes to mind. I say this about Herihor because I really do believe that Nodjmet from the the DB cache is his wife. She looks exactly like one of her images. Unless she had a tomb of her own, she and Herihor would have both been moved.

Ramesses XI gave up on his Theban tomb as he realized he had no more influence in the south. It would be wonderful if he had a northern tomb--undiscovered.

I'm sure you have his book, but as a matter of interest for all, Chris Naunton in his book, Searching for the Lost Tombs of Egypt, has an entire chapter devoted to Herihor, and some intersting things to say about DB320 that complement Dennis Forbe's book on the two caches.

I'll hold on to the hope that Herihor and Ramesses XI are still to be found.
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
Well I turned up in mid 2012, and it was quiet then, not as quiet as it is now, but hardly in good health.

The most active 'member' of late is someone who keeps posting with links to shoes. I take it there is no active moderator who would rapidly remove such posts. But other than that person, there are several folks who show up from time to time.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same type of spam has been here before. In the past the spamming has occured after a hostile member, always from the fringe, has been banned. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not. There was a mod, but he hasn't been active here for a long time, and has since sadly passed away. I'm sure that Kevin, the site owner, will clear the spam away if asked, but I'm just too lethargic to bother right now.

As the number of active members posting has dropped, so the number of odd characters appearing has increased.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just catching up. Dug out Scanning The Pharoahs, in that it is noted that Ramesses I was probably from DB320. This would however push the date the Abd el-Rassul family found the tomb back to 1860, when the earliest verified item traced back to them comes from 1874.

So if Ramesses I was from DB320 it means that the family were gradually selling items from it for nearly 20 years - as the mummy was known from the 1860s.
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SaintGermain
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missing from this latest publication were KV21 A and B, whose partial autosomal profiles were included in the 2010 paper. Since mitochondrial DNA with its haplogroup is usually easier to obtain than autosomal, one has to wonder what happened, And why the two female mummies from KV60 were tested, instead. The two babies were omitted, as well.

I have to say I objected to KV21A being proposed as the wife of Tutankhamen and the mother of his children when all but Tut had such incomplete profiles. After all, one wrong number can eliminate one from being a parent of a child. Even in only eight DNA markers, this was how Amenhotep III was eliminated as a possible father of Tutankhamen--by only one marker and its wrong numbers. At one of his markers, Tut got nothing from AIII at all, which would be impossible for a father and a son but possible for a grandfather and grandson.

Later, Hawass thought KV21A could be Nefertiti. But the fact remains that Nefertiti, daughters and granddaughters would all need to have the same mthaplogroup. Perhaps it was finally acknowledged that Tut's wife didn't necessarily have to be Ankhesenamen to be the mother of his children and the absence of K in her and them couldn't exclude the YL from being Nefertiti. But, really, it's frustrating because the mthaplogroups of all those in the 2910 publication should have been included, if obtainable.
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SaintGermain
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:

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I'm sure you have his book, but as a matter of interest for all, Chris Naunton in his book, Searching for the Lost Tombs of Egypt, has an entire chapter devoted to Herihor, and some intersting things to say about DB320 that complement Dennis Forbe's book on the two caches.


I have a large book by the latter that contains a lot of information. I do not have the Naunton book but I have a question about it. I tend to keep a minimalist Egyptological library these days. I have only those books which have a maximum of information, also an Egyptian dictionary and an Egyptian grammar. I read a lot of papers but I do not tend to purchase the books written by those who have made careers of appearing on television. Perhaps they are not all to be lumped in together but there are simply too many works about ancient Egypt that do not contain any new data or even new interpretations. That's why I prefer to stick with papers.

However, in Naunton's book does he actually come out and say the pharaohs who began their careers as commoners are the ones who seem to be missing from the caches?
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:


However, in Naunton's book does he actually come out and say the pharaohs who began their careers as commoners are the ones who seem to be missing from the caches?


No. In the section "Bodies still missing", page 147, he makes no reference at all to this aspect. In other chapters were he talks about the tomb of one of the missing, such as Horemheb, he only discusses the tomb. I doubt this aspect has crossed his mind going by what he has written in the book.
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:
but I do not tend to purchase the books written by those who have made careers of appearing on television. Perhaps they are not all to be lumped in together but there are simply too many works about ancient Egypt that do not contain any new data or even new interpretations. That's why I prefer to stick with papers.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I realize there is zero money in Egyptology and these guys are looking for an income, but appearing on Discovery Channel or History Channel to me is a loss of credibility. I also don't care for someone revealing their politics/social views when the topic at hand is Ancient Egypt. So, for those reasons I avoid Naunton.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's actually an interesting side topic, where do non Egyptologists get our information from, and are we reading pulp fiction, dumbed down stuff for the masses, and anywhere up to serious scholarly works.

So I just counted my books on Egypt and have 288. I don't think I have any pulp fiction, but about 30 are authored by "personalities" with an eye to the general public, and 10 huge coffee table photo books, which are handy for the clarity and scale of the images, for instance, where else, apart from the actual item, can you get a clear view of the inside of Tut's coffinettes. Though some people get all snooty at the mention of such books.

I have all of Dodson's books, and others by Naunton,Tyldesley, Marchant, Fletcher, the usual suspects as it were, though I find them useful, and easy reading on a cold wet Sunday afternoon in January.

This leaves some 248 other books to be catergorised. They are not all at the "high end", but are hardly low brow, for instance I have most of the works by Assmann and Hornung, and Morenz from whom they themselves refer to at times. How to catergorise the Thames and Hudson "Complete" series, hardly high end, but very handy to have. Is the work by Lehner and Hawass on Giza aimed at the "masses", not at it's price on publication I would have thought, though both are most certainly TV personalities.

An example of the type of books I use reasonably often are Hornung's works on the Amduat and Book of Gates, "The Boundary Stelae of Akhenaten", by William J Murnane and Charles C Van Siclen III. Used today in the thread about TA 26 today. Or "The role of the Lector in Ancient Egyptian Society" by Roger Forshaw, and "Temple Ritual at Abydos" by Rosalie David, but seemingly bizarrely, in conjunction with "Omm Sety's Abydos" by Dorothy Eady, Omm Sety herself. Some would class that as woo. Though the books on lectors and Abydos are used for my own research, not forum posts as nobody is in the slightest bit interested in such arcane subjects, unfortunately as most interest shown in fora is for the topics covered by the TV personalities, and that's why they get quoted so often.
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SaintGermain
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:

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I have all of Dodson's books, and others by Naunton,Tyldesley, Marchant, Fletcher, the usual suspects as it were, though I find them useful, and easy reading on a cold wet Sunday afternoon in January.


Thanks for the info on Naunton's book. I wouldn't, personally, put Dodson in with the others. I have his works on Amarna and the one of the royal families of ancient Egypt. They are no-nonsense books with a lot of information, although the last one on Nefertiti was a disappointment. Since he had already covered everything in "Sunrise" and "Sunset", I fail to see the point, anyway. But, I would have to say he is one of the major players in the field today. I don't think I've seen Dodson in many shows as a talking head, though.

Another major player is Reeves. The best book on the Valley is his original one although I sometimes check in his popular one as an easy access to what was found in the tombs. However, I find him a bit obsessed these days. Maybe he, with his knowledge of the VOK, should be the one to search for that third cache. Anyway, my entire Egyptological library consists of three shelves at present. The oversize ones are stacked on the bottom shelf in rows. I stick to the New Kingdom and, if that isn't in my head by now, I don't know when it will be. The books I keep are ones I can use for reference.

Study days. The British like them and they gave the UK Egyptophiles a reason to socialize. Things have changed now, of course, but I used to imagine the women brought their needlework to the lectures. Every society seems to have its own FB page but, after the tea and cake, how much information was retained because the FB groups [I used to belong to a couple] have so many members, hardly any of whom can give you a discussion on any aspect of the culture. Egyptology as a spectator sport?

Years ago, there weren't very many books on ancient Egypt but those that existed were good ones by prominent Egyptologists, most being professors. There is some money in Egyptology because teachers earn a salary. None of these [mostly men] would have considered writing a book for some extra cash. Reputations used to depend on the books. They had to be major works like "When Egypt Ruled the East". There was a lady Egyptologist, Barbara Mertz, who became wealthy as a novelist but, before that, she wrote some books for beginners that served a very useful purpose.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 on Aidan Dodson. I have a couple of his books and also enjoy his top notch lectures. I just recently watched one put on by some obscure English club and he spent well over an hour on a very detailed presentation that was for only a very small audience. So, it seems he has not become full of himself. Yes, he has appeared on some TV shows, but he has managed to maintain his credibility and also hasn't blown it by sharing his social or political views.
The one Mertz non-fiction book on AE I read was awful. Not scholarly at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been collecting books on Egypt for quite some years now but I doubt I have anywhere near 288. That is an impressive collection! How long did it take to collect all of them?

Maybe everyone here could get together and either take photos or make lists of their book collections relating to Egypt, no matter how big or small and post them in a thread in the Books section?
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