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Picture of a bust of Akhenaten
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Hannover, K.M. 1970.49 was, as usual with statues of this kind, originally painted. The colors have been identified with certainty, the skin of the face was kept in red-brown. Thus the gender of the person depicted is well established, it is a man. ...

After a discussion with Ray Johnson about his article "An Amarna Royal Head at Hanover Museum August Kestner" (In: KMT 26-3. - 2015. - pp. 22-29) via e-mail and over the list on EEF, I have to correct this statement.

Johnson pointed out that the "normal rules of red/men [and] yellow/women do not apply" do not apply during the Amarna-Period. There are several examples (on monuments at Karnak, the famous princess scene in the Ashmolean Museum from the King's Palace next to the small Aten temple, a fragmentary painted figure of Nefertiti in the Manchester Museum from the famous bridge between the Great Palace and the King's Palace) with red pigment for the skin of females.

In his article from the new issue of KMT he identifies Hannover, Kestner Museum, 1970.49 as Nefertiti after she became co-regent / king Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten. Ray Johnson's argument of the traces of the rounded (rather than squared off) ear tabs :
Quote:
"... the traces of the original ear-tabs on Kestner 1970.49 are round. Rounded eartabs that frame the brow band are usually found only on two types of crowns, the Khepresh, and the close-fitting Cap Crown associated with it. ... It is unlikely that the present Khepresh replaced an earlier one. A close-fitting Cap Crown can be eliminated, because enough survives of the front of the original crown to show that it did not follow the shape of the skull, like the Cap Crown does, but continued upward.
There is, however, a third type of crown, found only in the Amarna period, where round ear-tabs are also present. Reliefs and sculptures of the upward-flaring, flat-topped crown of Nefertiti — including the most famous example of all, Berlin 21.3007 — have rounded ear-tabs identical to the traces on Kestner 1970.49. ..." ( Ray Johnson, KMT 26-3, 2015, pp. 27 - 28 )

is in my view a not to be doubting case for the identification of the crown of Nefertiti as the original headgear of Kestner 1970.49.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kestner bust has all the hallmarks of a particular artist or studio that was active into the reign of Horemheb. The signature style is the way the lips are treated, not symmetrical, and the faces all have some similarity -

Maya and Merit

Tut's solid gold coffin

Coffin fitting in wood in the British Museum (identity of portrait unknown)

Fragment of a woman's face in jasper in the Met

Coffin that housed the mummy of Ramesses II but identified tentatively as originally made for Horemheb.

All of the above and more have the same signature style and look somewhat alike even though they clearly portray different individuals. So I think the Kestner bust could be any of the people discussed but to me it still most closely resembles Akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Picture of a bust of Akhenaten Reply with quote

anneke wrote:


I like this picture of Akhenaten. The khepresh crown is nicely made. No details or embellishments on the crown or the collar.
I wonder if it was meant to be painted.

The discussion in this topic are fascinating.

About the image: SHE is pretty.
Consider it carefully.
It is not Akhenaten and it is not Tutankhamun.
She is the wife of Akhenaten, daughter and sister of Nefertiti, and mother of Tutankhamun.
She held the throne for her son, the heir, Tutankhamun and died while doing so.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Bust of Akhenaten (Berlin ÄMP 21360) see Ludwig Borchardt : Porträts der Königin Nofret-ete aus den Grabungen 1912 / 13 in Tell El-Amarna. - [Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Orientgesellschaft in Tell El-Amarna III]. - Leipzig : Hinrichs, 1923. - Page 30 ff. - Figures 27 - 29 :



Greetings, Lutz.

Lutz is great.

In the excavation diagram that Lutz posted, observe in the upper right frame the relative positions of the bust of Nefertiti and the (bust and rubble) that is buried deeper in the lower layers.

The Bust of Nefertiti is located and positioned as if it is looking over a body or corpse that is below.

Consider. Could this not be a good way to leave a message that could be recognized and understood for thousands of years to symbolically inform that a daughter lying prone below died before the mother who is above looking over the place where the daughter lies (symbolically)?

Consider also with this the "home stela" in Berlin.
It shows the king and queen seated opposite each other with the king affectionately holding one child and kissing one child and three children seated on Nefertiti.

Consider that the king and queen are daughter and mother. The daughter is Meritaten (mother of Tutankhamun for whom she holds the throne).

In the stela, her crown is damaged to indicate that she died on the throne.

Consider that the "home stela" shows Nefertiti with her for daughters with her eldest daughter as king holding her child (Akhenaten's heir).
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant to write:
Consider that the "home stela" shows Nefertiti with her [four] daughters...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Here is an interesting picture from Ludwig Borchardt : Ausgrabungen in Tell el-Amarna 1912/13 - Vorläufiger Bericht. - MDOG zu Berlin 52, 1913, p. 40-41 :



Model bust of Amenhotep IV (Paris, Louvre E 11076 and Berlin, ÄMP 21360).

Greetings, Lutz.

Does the first bust on the viewer's left hand side have present or intact uraeus and vulture emblems on front of the crown?

Does anyone know or have a frontal image?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Here is an interesting picture from Ludwig Borchardt : Ausgrabungen in Tell el-Amarna 1912/13 - Vorläufiger Bericht. - MDOG zu Berlin 52, 1913, p. 40-41 :



Model bust of Amenhotep IV (Paris, Louvre E 11076 and Berlin, ÄMP 21360).

Greetings, Lutz.

Does the first bust on the viewer's left hand side have present or intact uraeus and vulture emblems on front of the crown?

Does anyone know or have a frontal image?


No, but the profile view is the most helpful, anyway. At all stages of his reign, Akhenaten is the only one who is shown in the round [or anywhere] with that configuration of elongated chin. It is his most unique and ubiquitous feature. Don't forget that this young man was already a king before the move to Akhetaten and the innovative style began. But the same chin is evident in any busts or statues brought from elsewhere--and they certainly represent a very young pharaoh. So there were 17 years for portraits of Akhenaten to be made.

Neferneferuaten as ruler is not attested past a Year 3. Most likely. if she wore any crown it would be that rounded blue one that seems to have become the substitute of the flat-topped one. That rounded cap-crown seems to me some sort of compromise between the older queenly headdress and something closer to what a king might wear. Nefertiti may have been a temporary co=king with her husband at Akhetaten, but after his death who knows how long she remained at that place. Thutmose II probably reigned no longer than Neferneferuaten and there is hardly anything portraying him. Even Thutmose I who ruled longer than them both--what is there of his?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:

No, but the profile view is the most helpful, anyway. At all stages of his reign, Akhenaten is the only one who is shown in the round [or anywhere] with that configuration of elongated chin. It is his most unique and ubiquitous feature. Don't forget that this young man was already a king before the move to Akhetaten and the innovative style began. But the same chin is evident in any busts or statues brought from elsewhere--and they certainly represent a very young pharaoh. So there were 17 years for portraits of Akhenaten to be made.

Thanks for the reply.
I asked about the uraeus and vulture because I think that I found them elsewhere. Otherwise, I would not have thought to ask if they were present on the crown.

Next. I understand why the elongated facial structure is regarded as a strong clue in absence of a more certain feature to identify Akhenaten but it is likely a fallible clue because Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten share the same father.

Nefertiti and Akhenaten also share Queen Tiye as their mother while Nefertiti (with her own father) is the mother of Meritaten. The three are siblings.

Facial structures among such close family members seem likely to me to have a greater probability to share strong similarities than if the family members were more distantly related and genetically diverse.

This is not to say that they could not have had very different facial features but the very close breeding has to be considered if any attempt is made to use the elongated facial structure to identify one of the three siblings.
Quote:
Neferneferuaten as ruler is not attested past a Year 3. Most likely. if she wore any crown it would be that rounded blue one that seems to have become the substitute of the flat-topped one. That rounded cap-crown seems to me some sort of compromise between the older queenly headdress and something closer to what a king might wear..

I forgot the proper name of her round headdress but it was not a crown of the pharaoh and it seems extremely unlikely that she as pharaoh (or any pharaoh) would or could have officially worn a crown that was not a crown of the throne. Her headdress was not a crown of the king or am I mistaken?
Quote:
Nefertiti may have been a temporary co=king with her husband at Akhetaten, but after his death who knows how long she remained at that place. .

I don't see that her being in one place or another would have diminished her status as king. However long she reigned, she did reign, regardless of where the capitol was established.
Quote:
Thutmose II probably reigned no longer than Neferneferuaten and there is hardly anything portraying him. Even Thutmose I who ruled longer than them both--what is there of his?
.

I recommend for Thutmose II to study very closely and carefully the images at Djeser Djeseru and will not say more than that.
No guarantees.

I have no suggestions for Thutmose I but think he is somewhere to be found.

Returning to the two busts of Akhenaten, I think they should be considered to really represent two different females (not exactly the male Akhenaten).

Consider that the two females each in her turn wore the blue crown as king on the throne of Egypt to hold it for Akhenaten's heir (the child Tutankhaten) to attain the maturity to reign for himself.

It is plausible that one or both females might have also held the throne while Akhenaten reigned, perhaps acting on his behalf if he was somehow impaired. But,
I have found nothing conclusive that informs this in fact occurred.

There's an interesting coincidence that might seem trivial but that I think is an interesting coincidence.

The bust on the right hand side has similar damage to its left ear that is much like damage to the left ear on the famous bust of Nefertiti in the Neues Museum in Berlin.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Meritaten ruled as king because she is named as royal wife on objects associated with Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten (both kings - Carter Box from KV62) as well as Smenkhkare (Meryre II tomb). You don't have individuals as king and queen at the same time.

Nefertiti becoming Neferneferuaten, yes, that seems likely to me but not until late in the reign, as she is still named as GRW in the year 16 inscription found around 2018.

As for Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten being siblings, I don't think we can be sure at all.

Meritaten is unquestionably the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

With Nefertiti we have NO inscriptional evidence about her parents, just that she has a sister Mutenberet / Mutnojmet. Both are associated with Ay and Tey, but neither are their parents. Tey is Nefertiti's wetnurse. Likely they are linked,

I would theorise they are two of the daughters of Tiye's confirmed brother Anen. Anen was dead by year 30 of Amenhotep III, had a son and daughters, and has an unusual reversal of a glyph in his name that Nefertiti shares. Nefertiti being Tiye's niece would have made her a good candidate to marry her son. If Ay is also Tiye's brother it makes sense for the two daughters of his deceased brother to be associated with his household.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
I don't think Meritaten ruled as king because she is named as royal wife on objects associated with Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten (both kings - Carter Box from KV62) as well as Smenkhkare (Meryre II tomb). You don't have individuals as king and queen at the same time.

Hatshepsut was s queen and then also king.
Consider the matter.
Did she renounce her official position as queen or was she simultaneously both king and queen in her reign?
Her statues that expressed both male and female characteristics can be regarded to represent the duality of her role in the kingship.
The kingship and queenship are conceptual offices or stations. There are no physical constraints to prevent holding both offices, stations or titles.
Yet,  many people remain perplexed by the ambiguity of gender that was expressed by her statues, even to think that she wanted to be seen as a male.
It seems more reasonable to me that her having (simultaneously) been both king and queen is represented by the duality of gender that her statues show.
The traditionally male kingship and female queenship were simultaneous in the reign of Hatshepsut.

Quote:
Nefertiti becoming Neferneferuaten, yes, that seems likely to me but not until late in the reign, as she is still named as GRW in the year 16 inscription found around 2018.

Akhenaten was still alive in year 16.
Meritaten (mother of the king's heir, daughter of the queen, sister to both king and queen) held the throne after Akhenaten.
The kingship for Nefertiti and Meritaten would not have prevented either from retaining her title as queen and GRW. It was an official title that each held.
I don't see a conflict.

Structure of the Smenhkare kingship in my findings is not absolutely clear in that Akhenaten seems to have been aware and involved, such that "Smenkhare" possibly could be regarded as a co-regency. But, among or including how many members?
Meritaten certainly held the throne (whether it was while Akhenaten lived or immediately upon his death is not clear).
Nefertiti was still queen while Meritaten reigned (very briefly).
It is my understanding that the "home stela" shows two women (not Akhenaten as many think) seated as the king and queen.
Quote:
As for Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten being siblings, I don't think we can be sure at all.
Meritaten is unquestionably the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

I disagree. The three are in fact siblings and Meritaten was the daughter of Amenhotep III (not Akhenaten).

I don't know where that information can or will be found in written inscriptions because I found it recorded within constructed references.

Quote:
With Nefertiti we have NO inscriptional evidence about her parents, just that she has a sister Mutenberet / Mutnojmet. Both are associated with Ay and Tey, but neither are their parents. Tey is Nefertiti's wetnurse. Likely they are linked,

I would theorise they are two of the daughters of Tiye's confirmed brother Anen.

Still, while there is " NO inscriptional evidence", Nefertiti is the daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III.

Not all recorded information in ancient Egypt was written and information that was recorded conceptually does not always involve textual inscriptions.

Finally here, the consideration about the representations of Hatshepsut with ambiguous gender also can be extended to the statues that are thought to represent akhenaten.

Hatshepsut was a queen (female) who held and occupied the kingship of Egypt. Her statues can be regarded to reflect the (male/ female]) duality of her role as both king and queen in the throne.

With Hatshepsut as the example, statues that are supposedly of Akhenaten that also show ambiguous gender can be regarded to demonstrate that a female figure was in the throne in the role of the king.

The statues and busts that supposedly show Akhenaten are mistakenly identified.

The statues are informative references that show to inform that a female held the throne of Akhenaten.
The statues show a female figure because a female occupied the kingship (to hold it for the child-heir).
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
karnsculpture wrote:
I don't think Meritaten ruled as king because she is named as royal wife on objects associated with Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten (both kings - Carter Box from KV62) as well as Smenkhkare (Meryre II tomb). You don't have individuals as king and queen at the same time.

Hatshepsut was s queen and then also king.
Consider the matter.
Did she renounce her official position as queen or was she simultaneously both king and queen in her reign?
Her statues that expressed both male and female characteristics can be regarded to represent the duality of her role in the kingship.


Hatchepsut's daughter Neferure was shown in her mortuary temple with queenly attributes but yes, Hatchepsut seems to have maintained some duties that she held as queen while also king. In some depictions Tuthmosis III is shown as dual-king in the usual place a queen would appear (behind Hatchepsut) - but in this case both are clearly kings.

Quote:

The kingship for Nefertiti and Meritaten would not have prevented either from retaining her title as queen and GRW. It was an official title that each held.
I don't see a conflict.

My point is that you never have an individual named as both king and queen. Meritaten is never shown as a king, only a queen to both Smenkhkare and Akhenaten/Neferneferuaten. It seems probable that Neferneferuaten Nefertiti was made king after year 16, Smenkhkare already gone, but their daughter maintained the GRW position.

Quote:

It is my understanding that the "home stela" shows two women (not Akhenaten as many think) seated as the king and queen.

That stela is unfinished but the number of empty cartouches shows it was likely a king and queen, albeit the latter with a kingly crown. As it is unfinished it is hard to assign in terms of who it represents or when it was created. It is interesting but not solid evidence.

Quote:
As for Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten being siblings, I don't think we can be sure at all.
Meritaten is unquestionably the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.


Quote:
I disagree. The three are in fact siblings and Meritaten was the daughter of Amenhotep III (not Akhenaten).

I don't know where that information can or will be found in written inscriptions because I found it recorded within constructed references.

Meritaten is attested multiple times as the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, at Karnak and Akhetaten. In the tomb of Huya she is shown with Amenhotep III and Akhenaten, but WITH Akhenaten and named as his daughter. If she was Amenhotep III's daughter why is this not stated?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Hatchepsut's daughter Neferure was shown in her mortuary temple with queenly attributes but yes, Hatchepsut seems to have maintained some duties that she held as queen while also king. In some depictions Tuthmosis III is shown as dual-king in the usual place a queen would appear (behind Hatchepsut) - but in this case both are clearly kings.


Whether the queen actually performs any  duties while holding the title and position as queen is irrelevant because her title remains unless it is revoked.

A good example,  I think,  is of Nefertiti who apparently disappeared from the public record from years 11 until 16 of Akhenaten.
Although she was out of sight and not in public view as queen, she was still queen in her official title and capacity.

The queen (once bestowed with her title) did not need to perform any function to retain the official position and title. This is the point I wanted to make with the example of Hatshepsut.

The queens who became kings each still held her official position as queen even if that role was not actvely expressed while they exercised their kingship.

In a similar sense,  Thutmose III did not lose his official standing as heir to his father’s throne simply because Hatshepsut was made pharaoh.  His official role and standing as heir remained valid despite her kingship.

Her position as queen did not lapse or expire because she was made pharaoh and neither did his official position as heir to the throne.

Quote:
My point is that you never have an individual named as both king and queen. Meritaten is never shown as a king, only a queen to both Smenkhkare and Akhenaten/Neferneferuaten. It seems probable that Neferneferuaten Nefertiti was made king after year 16, Smenkhkare already gone, but their daughter maintained the GRW position.

Smenkhkare is misunderstood.

Just a side note:
A scarab of Thutmose III (Carter No. 001a) was found by Howard Carter buried in the stairway of the tomb of Tutankhamun.
[http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/001a-c001ae.html]
Carter noted in his journal for 24 Nov. of 1922:

"Here was evidence of at least the
reign of the discov tomb, but its true significance was still a
puzzle, for in the lower rubbish that filled the stair-case
entrance we found masses of broken potsherds, broken boxes,
the latter bearing the names and protocol of Akhenaten, Smenkh-
Ka-Ra, and Tut-ankh-Amen, and with what was even more
upsetting a scarab of Tehutimes III, as well as a fragment
bearing the cartouche of Amenhetep III. These conflicting data"

The  upsetting "scarab of Tehutimes III"  that Carter found (unknown to him) was actually an informative reference about the parallels in the kingships of Tutankhamun and "Tehutmes III".

[http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/discoveringTut/journals-and-diaries/season-1/journal.html]

I wrote this up in a notebook some time ago but I will offer a short version here
.
The way the reference works is that the names found in the stairway with the scarab are to be listed on one side of a two-column ledger.

The names in the second column are to be inferred by relationships beginning with the clue that was given (Thutmose III).

Thutmose III relates to "Tut-ankh-Amen".
Then we infer that
Thutmose II relates to "Akhenaten" as the fathers.
Thutmose I relates to "Amenhetep III" as the grandfathers.

"Smenkh-Ka-Ra" is devilishly tricky but the three Thutmoses have Hatshepsut in common that implies Nefertiti on the Atenist side of the ledger. And,  most tricky in this is that Hatshepsut was with Neferure as Nefertiti was with Meritaten (whose names are also found within the tomb).

"Smenkh-Ka-Ra" by this constructed reference is indicated to be a paired-reference and not an individual person. Other references reinforce and affirm this initial reference that was buried at the outer doorway of the tomb.

To keep this brief: Tutankhamun was ultimately in the care of Nefertiti as Thutmose III was in the care of Hatshepsut.

Meritaten, unlike Neferure, was pharaoh.
The question from the references that I have is whether she was in a coregency as this indicates and what was the structure of that kingship,  was Akhenaten included or did he arrange it?

This is just my side note.


Quote:
That stela is unfinished but the number of empty cartouches shows it was likely a king and queen, albeit the latter with a kingly crown. As it is unfinished it is hard to assign in terms of who it represents or when it was created. It is interesting but not solid evidence.

The stela is misunderstood to be "unfinished" and it is true as you say that "it is hard to assign in terms of who it represents or when it was created." But, the references were not designed to stand alone. The stela is one reference element amongst others.
Quote:
Meritaten is attested multiple times as the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, at Karnak and Akhetaten. In the tomb of Huya she is shown with Amenhotep III and Akhenaten, but WITH Akhenaten and named as his daughter. If she was Amenhotep III's daughter why is this not stated?

Ancient Egypt is (a place?) that presents multiple truths that sometimes can appear to be in contradiction. 

Consider The Contendings of Horus and Seth.
The constructed references apparently were designed to be considered for the validity of each (their truth) in the context that they are found.

I think your question might be more precisely framed as,  why is it not written?

I suspect that it is somehow noted somewhere in greater detail but what we have at hand are the introductory abstracts for things that not everyone was meant to see and know.  So,  it is in a form (or forms) that is not immediately recognizable.
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