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Crossed Sticks?
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maat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:09 pm    Post subject: Crossed Sticks? Reply with quote

This is food for thought.
If hieroglyphic crossed sticks indicate to ignore, omit, eliminate or exclude, what is the signifficance of the crossed arms of a mummy even if it holds the crook and flail?
Consider the implications.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Crossed Sticks? Reply with quote

maat wrote:
... If hieroglyphic crossed sticks indicate to ignore, omit, eliminate or exclude, ...

Says who?
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maat
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:23 am    Post subject: Re: Crossed Sticks? Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
maat wrote:
... If hieroglyphic crossed sticks indicate to ignore, omit, eliminate or exclude, ...

Says who?

[Collier and Manlley. How To Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs. 1998.]
page 138, symbol D7 "crossed sticks det. separate, cross, pass by"

The conceptual significance is to ignore, eliminate or remove something from inclusion or to exclude it from consideration.
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gardiner's description for Z9 has other determinative meanings, such as damage, break, divide, lessen, subtract, etc. What does that have to do with crossed arms? Gardiner describes the glyph as two sticks crossed.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing!

Gardiner Z9 has phonetic value HD.j, means "to injure; to destroy; to be lacking".
Gardiner Z9 can be determinative for some other words.

Crossed sticks do have nothing to do with crossed arms (of a Mummy).

Aset
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maat
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
Gardiner's description for Z9 has other determinative meanings, such as damage, break, divide, lessen, subtract, etc. What does that have to do with crossed arms? Gardiner describes the glyph as two sticks crossed.

Symbolism (the concept that something can effectively represent another thing) allows a symbol to have multiple significance.
For example, a person who holds up an index finger can signify the number one, stop, wait, pause, or up. A stick or twig can in some contexts have equal meaning as an index finger.
Crossed sticks or 'two crossed sticks' or two crossed bones or dead arms can be symbolically equal.
Crossed arms in some contexts can be taken today to mean a hug. Gardiner's interpretations as you note are not exclusive. I think they show the nuance of ideas that the symbol involves.
Break, divide, lessen and subtract signify to reduce and remove.
The word 'No' written with sticks, paint or arms still means no.
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maat
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
Nothing!

Gardiner Z9 has phonetic value HD.j, means "to injure; to destroy; to be lacking".
Gardiner Z9 can be determinative for some other words.

Crossed sticks do have nothing to do with crossed arms (of a Mummy).

Aset

Your position equates to conclude that an index finger, a stick and a single line can never have equal meaning. Yet, they each can mean one. Look around ancient Egypt and consider the matter.
Consider the bust of Nefertiti. The eyes, plaster padding under the eyes that angled light show as nb shaped shadows. Its filtrum with a line at its center, over her mouth.
I recognized the pad under her right eye long before the museum found the plaster.
Was it really to make her look older? An extraneous sculpter's model that showed the queen with a missing eye while the artist kept both of his?
Gardiner symbols are only written? Are there no 'LOVE' and 'AMOR' sculptures today that use letters? The Egyptians could not include hieroglyphic symbols in sculptures? An eye, an oval, a mouth? What are those things on face of the bust?
Consider crossed arms and other. A mummy and bust can last longer than papyrus. Where would you put information to last a thousand years?
It's food for thought.
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maat
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
Gardiner's description for Z9 has other determinative meanings, such as damage, break, divide, lessen, subtract, etc. What does that have to do with crossed arms? Gardiner describes the glyph as two sticks crossed.

Also, consider the Tut mummy with Gardiner's descriptions:
a damaged mummy, subtracted ribs, toe. The mummy is lessened.
The granite cover was broken, divided on the sarcophagus. The mummy
has crossed arms and also holds a crook and flail that are not both straight but can be identified as sticks.
The khufu statuette in contrast holds only a flail.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought the crook and flail plus crossed arms is about the duality of kingship - protective and nurturing while also protective and destructive (to enemies). The crossed arms can indicate protection of the self or the country, and also strength. So there are dual or multiple functions and meanings that seem obvious and are backed up by over 1000 years of pharonic imagery as well as statements in political writings.
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
I always thought the crook and flail plus crossed arms is about the duality of kingship - protective and nurturing while also protective and destructive (to enemies). The crossed arms can indicate protection of the self or the country, and also strength. So there are dual or multiple functions and meanings that seem obvious and are backed up by over 1000 years of pharonic imagery as well as statements in political writings.

I accept that symbols can be taken to mean different things but the range of possible meanings is narrower and more definite if crossed arms are equal to the hieroglyph of crossed sticks.
What would you think it to mean and more broadly imply if it was true?
I am not asking that you agree. I ask for you to consider the premise as a hypothetical.

About the crook and flail, I think the emphasis on power and punishment is projected more from the modern perspective. Maybe it looks like a monstrous fly wisk but I studied it a few years ago and found the flail is a device that encodes the dimensions of several right triangles. I don't have access to my early notes without a computer but from memory, a bead on a strand is the basic unit. It equals half of the length of one band.
A bead or band can then have the value 1. If the bead is 1 then a band is 2.
The point part on the straight side has a value that is added to unit bands counted along the handle. The hypotenvse length is measured from point down the handle then back up the handle if needed.
The angled side of the tip that has the strands measures 1 band long or fractionally. Quarter values and smaller are possible.
Length of a leg is from tip along a strand to include sets of beads in length with the tip.
Leg two is a longert bead alone or to add the long bead to the first leg, then measure sum from tip along the handle to get the hypotenuse. If I am mistaken, you can find it. I have a Word file somewhere with tables and graphs. It's an amazing device. Certainly not a fly wisk.
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the large flail of Tutankhamun in
Tutankhamun's Tomb: The Thrill of Discovery [Allen, Susan J]

Forgive the imperfect reference. I am not at home and noting from memory.
The book has one image with two crooks and twn flails.
Use the large flail because the smaller has an intentially included oddity.
The crook is a very different beast.
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is re-posted with corrections .


About the crook and flail, I think the emphasis on power and punishment is projected more from the modern perspective. Maybe it looks like a monstrous fly wisk but I studied it a few years ago and found the flail is a device that encodes the dimensions of several right triangles. I don't have access to my early notes without a computer but from memory, a bead on a strand is the basic unit. It equals half of the length of one band.
A bead or band can then have the value 1. If the bead is 1 then a band is 2.
The point part on the straight side has a value that is [to be] added to unit bands [that are] counted along the handle. The [hypotenuse] length is measured from [the] point [and] down [along] the handle then back up the handle if needed.
The angled side of the [point] that has the [three] strands measures 1 band long or [a fraction like 1.5]. Quarter values and smaller are possible.
Length of a leg is from tip along a strand to include sets of beads in length with the tip.
Leg two [length] is a [longest] bead alone or to add the long bead to the first leg, then measure sum from tip along the handle to get the hypotenuse. If I am mistaken, you can [experiment] to find it. I have a Word file somewhere that [fully explains it] with tables and graphs. It's an amazing device. Certainly not a fly wisk.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The crook and flail both go back to the birth of the Egyptian state and reference the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry on the banks of the nile. The state was grown from farming up, and possessing the means to defend settled communities and deal with other states through a ruler and supporters. The crook and flail symbolise all of that.
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
I always thought the crook and flail plus crossed arms is about the duality of kingship - protective and nurturing while also protective and destructive (to enemies). The crossed arms can indicate protection of the self or the country, and also strength.

About
Quote:
So there are dual or multiple functions and meanings that seem obvious and are backed up by over 1000 years of pharonic imagery as well as statements in political writings.

In the obvious imagery and writings has not been found to my knowledge the function of the flail that I described. That aspect of the flail was long missed because expectations are that such things will have been 'obviously' written or that it must be about royal political power as a projection of physical force. In such considerations, the flail 'must' be a symbol of royal power to menace and punish. The Egyptians did not write that it holds a fundamental knowledge of the civilization possessed by the king to be passed forward even in death. They did not make this plainly obvious because it was in part basis of their great abilities.
I think and have learned that they were far from plainly obvious than public writings and declarations suggest. I recommend others to consider Egypt non-traditionally because it is not as obvious as traditionally regarded. If they did not publicize the flail as the functional device in more than a thousand years, is there more that traditional consideration has missed?
Traditional considerations are valid but (as you also note) there can be multiple functions (aspects still to be considered). Such aspects might not be all equally obvious to be immediately recognized.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
The crook and flail both go back to the birth of the Egyptian state and reference the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry on the banks of the nile. The state was grown from farming up, and possessing the means to defend settled communities and deal with other states through a ruler and supporters. The crook and flail symbolise all of that.

And an abacus is only a musical instrument?
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